Calm isn't an App: Culture, Autonomy, and the Myth of Productivity (with Kacie Brennell)

Meetings on top of meetings. Quick calls that never stay quick. We've been told that that's what good management looks like. But really, it's just control theater. When you run your business by your calendar or by control, you lose the very thing you actually need most autonomy, the space to think, the margin to do your best work.

We've been taught that meetings equal management, that productivity is proved by how often we're face to face. But when ad hoc touch base meetings become the default operating system, autonomy evaporates. I'm Susan Bowles, this is Calm is the New KPI, where we solve for calm one KPI, one bottleneck, one business at a time. Today, I'm talking with Kacie Brennell She's a freelance project manager and a longtime geeky project management friend.

We actually met about seven years ago when I was running a big software implementation at the college where I worked, and Kacie was managing the project from the software side. So we've been project management friends for a while now. And today, we're talking about autonomy in work. How software tools can help create that shift, but only if they're paired with a culture change. Because often when companies say they want collaboration, what they really mean is control.

We say productivity, but what we measure is presence, not outcomes. So if you've ever looked up from a day of meetings and wondered why your to do list got longer, this one's for you. We're pulling on the management style lever from the calmer framework. The default under capitalism is authoritarian, top down control. But the calmer alternative is autonomy, encouraging people to do their own work and giving them the systems to do it.

If you've tried using maybe a software tool to create autonomy, but you skipped the culture shift part, this conversation will show you what to change, in what order, and how to actually keep the margin you create. Casey, you and I are both really big fans of using technology in our work. That's actually randomly how we met. We were doing this big software implementation, and you were doing project management on the software side, and I was doing it on the side of the organization. And so collectively know each other via project management software, which is super weird niche, but I kind of love it.

I just get a kick out of the fact that that's how we met.

I really do too. It does seem like it was several lives ago. Life is coming full circle because now the main work that I'm doing now as an independent, I'm working for another software company. I'm drawing from the lessons I learned as a young 25 year old new to the work world and remembering what not to do. That's for sure.

I love that. So we are both fans and tend to evangelize using software or technology or tools to make your work easier and calmer. But why is that something that's so important to you?

I have experienced the version of me that isn't calm, and it is not pretty. It really isn't. I really set myself into a spiral and I would call this, let's just call it a past chapter of my career. I'm going to fully proclaim to the world that I'm out of that chapter now. But there was a moment in time where chaos was so normalized and my nervous system was so dysregulated that I didn't even know it was dysregulated because I had nothing to compare it to.

And finally, I removed myself from that situation, I just thought like, this can't be it. There's gotta be a different way. And now that I've gotten a little taste for what it's like to feel regulated and calm and approach work from a place of creativity and inspiration and not fear or demands or expectations, I can never go back. I can never go back.

The people that are advocating for calmer businesses for a more regulated nervous system, almost everybody has a burnout story somewhere in their past. And my greatest hope for the world is that eventually, we get to the point where people don't have to go through burnout in order to get to the point to realize how valuable it is to have calmer work, to have a calmer day to day life.

Absolutely. That's a beautiful North Star. Honestly, if I could reach any young person about to graduate college looking into like how he or she wants to navigate the working world, I would absolutely say like your nervous system is your speedometer, let's call it like that is your ticker for when you're on or when you're off, in terms of how your life is working and to really get in touch with that because, you know, for the entire decade of my twenties, I didn't pay attention to that at all. I didn't know how to connect to my breath. I didn't know how to feel in my body.

Like, does this feel right? Does this feel wrong? My entire entry into the working world was go, go, go prove, prove, prove, do, do, do shine, shine, shine, which in some moments was absolutely great when things were going well, but when they weren't, it just really was not sustainable. I would love to create a world in which people don't have to experience such drastic burnout in order to learn these lessons. But I guess we all find our way to our truth and our own our own unique path.

But man, I wouldn't repeat it and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Same. So as we're talking about technology and software, one of the things that kind of triggered me to reach out to have you on the show, you made a post about using software to help create more autonomous work environments. So tell me more about that.

Oh, gosh, you know, this is like my hyper independent, everyone leave me alone side of my personality coming out. I consider myself to be super extroverted, and I love to chat with people. But I think when I get in work mode, I work really, really well with quiet, independent concentration time. And I've seen how with a certain mix of people or with the current like way of the world, let's call it, which is one that is very meeting heavy. People end up having back to back meetings and back to back calls with no time to actually do their work.

Because so much time in the meetings is spent deciding what we should do. And so I'm, I think I'm trying to flip this model on its head because it's very intuitive to me and it has just now recently since talking about this, come into my awareness that like not everybody thinks this way. And I'm like, wait a second guys, what? What are we talking about here? Like, clearly my way has some merit to it, everyone please lend me an ear.

And so this idea of being able to very succinctly communicate what needs to get done and by when, posting that in a place where everyone has access no matter where they're at, no matter what time zone they're in, and everyone knows what they're responsible for, I think is this liberating factor that lets people live their lives without having to jump on a quick call. Hey, can you join this meeting? Oh, really quick, how about a quick ten minutes that turns into forty five the next morning? I'm noticing how in some work environments that type of like last minute, well, we just, and aren't you, and will you, is like the baseline. It's normal, but if we go back to talking about the nervous system and like staying regulated, like having a plan, agreeing to it, sticking to it, and getting into a rhythm that allows people to own their time, to own how their energy works at its best.

The results are going to happen. Why deny people the opportunity to experience calm, because we can't figure out how to like have less meetings. I think that the software, the cloud system getting into a good rhythm of communicating what needs to get done when who owns it ahead of time is the key to giving people back their freedom and autonomy. I would hope that everybody would agree with that, but I might be wrong.

I mean, I think in our current hyper capitalist society where the goal is theoretically productivity, but the interpretation of what productivity means, I think is sometimes different. I think you and I think about productivity in terms of getting real work done. But I think there are so many work environments where we are I like the phrase LARPing our jobs, where we are live action role playing our jobs. We're pretending to do work. We're acting like we're working.

That theoretically should maybe translate to being quote, unquote productive. But in actuality, most of the research says that's mostly bullshit. Yeah. So I think there are environments where there is a heavy emphasis put on meetings as a form of communication. When we get into like corporate work environments, the way we're taught to communicate, I think most often, is face to face.

Right? You're supposed to build those relationships. You're supposed to use the live communication to collaborate, to coordinate. And I almost think the autonomous asynchronous kind of communication skills never really get taught. Even when we give technology, when we give them a robust project management tool, if we're not matching that with different management and communication training to enable people to understand how to hold someone accountable or how to delegate work or how to communicate effectively, I think sometimes it feels like it's hampering the work.

What are your thoughts on that?

You know, this is also new to me because I live in the bubble of my own brain where I'm always right. And so stepping out of that and seeing how other people view asynchronous communication, who have had the normalized background of meeting heavy, call heavy workdays, I'm getting so educated. I think that there is a fear of asynchronous communication, because either people are afraid that their message isn't gonna land, or like you said, they just genuinely don't know how. And I am really getting worked by this right now because the client that I'm primarily working with now is a group of very experienced, very intelligent, smart, competent men who are in their mid fifties. I would say there's about seven of them.

I'm the youngest. I'm one of the only women on the team. I have noticed like, even just being like, Hey, I'm not available at that time. Can you make me a loom? It's like, well no, this is more complicated than a loom.

And so for me in my brain, because asynchronous is like, the only way that I know how to work. I'm thinking for something to merit a meeting, I'm like, who's dying? You know what I'm saying? I'm like, woah, if we're meeting about this, like something is serious. And to the fear of like, oh, know, how are we gonna build that relationship?

How will we build that rapport? I'm like, actually, when we have less meetings about nothing, which is who's gonna do this, who's gonna do that. Okay. I could have solved that in five minutes in my own brain and made it into a, like a work breakdown structure in monday.com, Asana, whatever. Then in the time that I just saved, I could set up a walk and talk with someone two time zones away from me saying, hey, the work day's done, I'm gonna go take a walk.

I'd love to get to know you, do you have twenty minutes to tell me about your life and your background? And I can set up a walk and talk and genuinely get to know that person and not sit there and dread in a meeting why I'm there, why I was invited, what are we even doing or solving, and then resent the person for wasting my time.

I mean, I have a very similar attitude towards meetings that you do, which is if I could avoid most meetings, I will. Not because I don't think they're valuable, but because I think there are very specific ways in which they are valuable. I find them super valuable when I am brainstorming or I'm trying to, like, work through a specific challenge or a specific problem. There is kind of an interaction that you can't get quite as easily via asynchronous. Not to say that you can't do it.

It's just it's not quite as dynamic where something somebody else says will trigger something for you to think. And so, like, those kind of meanings I find super energizing and really valuable. Yep. But like you said, you know, the who's doing what and when, where does this project stand, how is the process gonna work? I think there are so many more valuable ways to communicate that information for both parties and that everybody's busy these days.

Everybody would rather be able to interpret that information in the way that works best for them. And whether that ends up being a Loom video or a written brief or an automated onboarding sequence, I think thinking about communication in a different way is required to be able to use that software tool effectively, regardless of whether it's Monday or ClickUp or Notion or Asana or whatever. You can't just throw a software tool at somebody and expect it to create a more autonomous work environment. It has to come with some cultural changes for the organization. And when you do make those cultural changes, I think that it ultimately creates stronger communication.

It creates documentation for the communication. Because for the most part, it's written down or you can go back to it. And it's not as ephemeral as it happening in a meeting where somebody says something and then ten minutes later, you go, oh, somebody said something really great. Now I

can't remember what it is. I know, right? I hate when that happens. You're really nailing it, though. I think what we're talking about here is behavior change.

And I think the, what I'm feeling is the tension between generations and an entirely different way of being that results from that generational divide. And I think the way that we bridge that is with a lot of patience and a lot of compassion, an open mind and a willingness to learn. I do have a tendency to go into situations thinking that my way is the best. I think to a certain extent, we kind of have to be that way as independent service providers.

Nobody's going be like, my way sucks. Let's do it. Let's do it a different way. Certainly not anybody who lives in the operations side of businesses.

Right, right. So yeah, I mean, I'm learning to straddle the line of confidence and experience versus like, you know, arrogance and kind of like a flippant attitude towards anything that is done in a way that I wouldn't typically do it. And there have been some meetings that I'm like, okay, if this meeting is run correctly, like this can be very fruitful. But I think what we're facing is nine out of 10 meetings, people aren't taught how to run them. No.

You know, if we're not deciding something, if we're just chatting, we're pondering, we're philosophizing, we're also living in a day and age where most people have more than one job. We're competing for time and attention. And I also wonder too, if a lot of this return to the office stuff that's going on for people who have normal corporate jobs is very much like a death rattle to have control over people, like an attempt to have one last, let me get my hands on your time to make me feel important type of like ego thing.

It's absolutely about control. It's not about collaboration. We've demonstrated that over the last five years, people can learn how to effectively communicate asynchronously. They can effectively collaborate asynchronously. There's all kinds of tools that can enable and help that process along if people are open to it.

But I do think that there isn't necessarily a value for creating more autonomous work environments. And those of us who freelance or have our own companies are people who inherently do have a value for at least our own autonomy. But I think at a kind of societal level, autonomy isn't something that's valued or prioritized enough. And so even if we implement tools that can create a more autonomous or more asynchronous asynchronous work environment to give users flexibility or autonomy and how and when they work. I think the harder part, the more insidious part is starting to value autonomy and prioritize autonomy not just for ourselves, but for our organization as a whole.

And that requires letting go of some control and trusting the people in our organization to be adults and to be able to manage their own work. And I think, particularly in America, our work culture is pretty infantilizing when it comes to the individual employees.

Yes. Oh my gosh, you nailed it. We really are talking about behavior change. We're talking about culture change. We're talking about values change.

And I still hold out hope, I still hold out hope that there are people who aspire to lead, who have the values of autonomy and energetic balance and life fullness. When I say life fullness, I mean like, we're coming to our work from a place of fulfillment, not only through the thing that we're doing, but from all the other aspects of ourselves that have had the opportunity to be fulfilled because of the autonomy we have over our time and our energy. It's about creating a culture of workers who are enriched and fulfilled and endlessly curious, who can show up to something with their cup already full, who don't need to be patronized or infantilized, watched over, controlled. So, I think you made a really good point and this is something that I'm definitely noticing in my role with one of my newer clients too, is that at the end of the day, the tools really are tools. That's what they are.

The tool is not going to incite the change. The change has to come from within and the tool can facilitate more change, but it's not going to be the leader and be like on the brink of that. It's, it's got to come from a person first. And I think I'm starting to come back down to reality with how long it takes for people to change their minds, change their hearts, change their values and see what's possible. Because I try to imagine, I'm like, how did we get here?

How did we get to this state where all these meetings are so normalized? We're solving the problems for other people and then watching them do exactly what you said to do was normal. Like, why can't we just say, hey, here's the finish line, you are the expert, you know how to do this, get it done, call me when it's done and we'll move on to the next one. What's going on in that person that they think that they can't do that? Because if we just throw tools at the problem, like nothing's ever gonna change.

Yeah, I think the tool has to be coupled with cultural change. It has to be coupled with skill development. Because if you are not used to delegating via written word, if you're not used to advocating for change via the written word, if you are unused to communicating, except in a face to face kind of way, there is a real need to develop different kinds of communication skills to be able to effectively manage asynchronously, to effectively manage not face to face. And so I think it's kind of where we're circling around to is the tool is important. It can be a really strong facilitator to make that communication easier and faster and more efficient.

There's a lot of benefits in terms of, like, reporting how well things are going when something database. It's in a system. But I think without at least tweaking what the culture is or how we're approaching work and building those skills, I think ultimately ends up being a tool that people don't use as effectively as they could. And so it ends up being a burden and not something that helps.

You're right. And honestly, I think I've taken that really for granted. A lot of these skills that you're talking about that come intuitively to me, I think I accidentally discount because I just assume that everybody knows what I know. What I'm seeing is that asynchronous communication is not intuitive for everyone. I think that there are people who worry if their message is getting across or I think there are people who don't know how to first independently really reflect on what is it I need?

What am I trying to ask for? And like, could this have been an email? And really, I would take that even a step farther, right? I'm like the meeting doesn't need to be an email and the email doesn't need to exist because the task is already in Monday. You can tag me in the task that's I'm already the owner of, and we can have all of our communication that's task related on that thread in the project management software that the entire team can see.

Because guess what? My coworkers can't read my emails. If I'm not copied, I don't know what's going on. But if everything is in Monday, Asana, Smartsheets, whatever, then it's like we have a single source of truth that we can all rally behind. It's like, imagine it being like a high powered digital whiteboard, throw in the water cooler for this metaphor if you want, because there's places to hang out and chat too.

I hope that that will be the norm for the future. I hope the future is now. But I can see that it's going to take a lot of patience and compassion and willingness to model the behavior. And also genuine curiosity about what's getting in the way of autonomy, independence, and trust being the values? Or where's the breakdown there?

I think it's capitalism. That's my answer to everything.

I mean, you're not wrong.

Those are values we don't prioritize. The structure of a capitalist system is essentially exploitation of the workers. Like, that's the foundation of the system. And so if the structure is configured for the purpose of exploitation, then why would we expect the workers in the system to be able to envision something different? If the standard is we're exploiting people and they're not able to think independently or to act independently, why would we expect something different of them?

So I think the issue is really at a societal level, unpacking some of those really deeply ingrained beliefs to see that potentially it could be another way, you know, a lot of workers and companies in other countries that aren't so determinedly capitalistic. They don't have these kinds of problems. Not to say that they're all perfect, but they don't have to unlearn that workers should have autonomy. They grow up believing that workers should have autonomy.

Right.

We don't have to teach them that. But, you know, here, that's really contradictory and sometimes controversial to posit that workers should have autonomy over their work and when they do it and where they do it and how they do it and that they should be able to work in the way that works best for them. And that shouldn't be controversial, but it is.

Gosh, just hearing you say that makes me still feel so like wide eyed, like an innocent Bambi like, what? You're telling me what? And I'm like, Casey, are you really that shocked? Like, I've been in the working world now for what, a little bit over ten years, I guess? And I think I'm just sometimes blinded by my own optimism.

And I wanna believe that there are exceptions to the rule because of course there are. But I guess if this podcast, if this message were to reach any leader, anyone who has real influence over the way of being at their company. First, I have so many questions, but second, I think I would just say like, what matters to you and why? And does what matters to you matter to everyone who's working for you? Because that values alignment is everything.

And once we get that established, then the tools can really be like a rocket ship to success. I think you might have seen this on LinkedIn, someone pushed back and I said, isn't the sell here that people want their time back? And they're like, oh no, know, that's kind of what we thought with email. You know, we were all gonna be so efficient because we could email and then we ended up just taking work everywhere we go because now emails on our phone and we never stop. So, they're like, if you get more productive and you can do things faster, you're just gonna have more work to do.

And I'm like, where does it end? Like this is not the point. The point is, get the work done in a reasonable amount of time and then go live your life because you've done enough. You're earning enough. It's all enough.

We don't need to keep pushing harder, more, better, faster, whatever.

Let's go live. I think that's one of the biggest distinctions between companies that have a calmer ethos and kind of the default companies is what are we using efficiency for. Right? So efficiency is a goal at both of those organizations. We're using that efficiency to create more margin.

What are we putting into the margin? And at the default companies, it's we are trying to maximize and shove as much work and productivity into that created time as possible. And in calmer companies, we're using that to have margin for the margin to exist, to do things that are not work, to rest, or to spend time with your kids, go enjoy a hobby, get a new hobby. So I think the value for efficiency is really at the heart of what we're talking about here. You know, we're talking about using technology to create efficiency, to create margins.

But the difference between a cone company and a default company is what are you using that efficiency for? What's the point of efficiency?

You nailed it. And I honestly, I don't think I'm ever gonna understand these people who are like, I'm creating more efficiency so I can do more work. No. Thank you.

You know, we're taught that in school. We're taught that in work. And from a very early age, we are inundated with messages messages that that the point of being efficient, the point of being productive, the point of doing good work is to do more of it. Capitalism essentially is designed to eliminate rest. That's a construct of the system.

So it's very difficult to get around that when you're still living according to those rules.

Wow. Man, it's tough out there.

I think, you know, the desire for calmer companies, the way in which you build a calmer company, you inherently have to unpack some of those unconscious biases in order to envision something that could be calmer because the default is growth at all costs. The default is do more. We're going to be efficient so we can do more and make more sales and shove more work and maximize everything. So I don't think it's possible to create a calmer company without unpacking some of that at least.

Absolutely. And it's a shame that a lot of that responsibility lies in just a few people, the executive leadership team, because it really does need to start at the top. I think that people like me who have found themselves deconstructing those old mentalities, it became impossible for me to stay in environments where everybody else wasn't doing the same. So now I'm fortunate I found myself in a position where I can be independent and be selective about who I work with and be very cautious and be very well boundaried. And it's working out great.

I'm still very early in my journey here, I've only been doing this for a little over a year on my own, but I got my health under control. And now, you know, I sleep at least eight hours every night. I'm getting good quality rest. I have too many hobbies to count. I'm just like scatter brain and I'm like, I wanna learn this, I wanna learn that, let's go here, let's try that.

But it's so, it's so enriching and all of these experiences that I have outside of my working hours enrich me so much that when I do sit down to do my client work, my mentality and the way I think and the energy that I come at it is one that is fulfilled and curious and not run down or resentful or begrudgingly just doing something because she has to. You know, it comes from a place of inspiration, not obligation. I wish everyone could experience this.

I did an interview recently with Karen Sargent. We were talking about her client report card process. And one of the items in her client report card is reflection on how she's approaching the engagement and whether or not she feels like she's coming from a place of generosity in the engagement versus, you know, resentment or annoyance. And she uses that as a benchmark for how well is the client engagement going and reflects on it weekly, actually, as part of her process. And I think it's so interesting that you bring it up as well because I think so much of how we engage with clients is a reflection of how we are internally feeling.

You know, are we run down? Are we burnt out? Are we exhausted? And sometimes that has nothing to do with the actual client engagement. It's more the environmental factors.

And when we can make sure that we are taken care of, it allows us to really be in generous service to our clients. So I love that you brought that up too. Because I think that is a commonality across a lot of the companies and founders that I talked to who are on a journey to run something calmer.

Yes. I'm new to this. Like I never used to pause and ask like, how do I feel about this? Because it always used to be, well, what do they want from me? And how can I give it to them and excel their expectations oftentimes to my own detriment?

And now I'm like, I'm not giving anything away. Like if this needs to feel good for me or I am not interested. And so maybe that's what the default company leaders and the default cultural standard is afraid of is people taking their power and their energy back, showing discernment with whom they engage and how. But it's a step in the healthy direction, at least it has been for me. Going out on your own is really scary and unfortunate because I have a lot of support.

I don't know if I could have done it if I was completely on my own. But one day I hope that we get to a point where people don't have to just go out on their own to be able to own their energy and their time and their autonomy.

I would love for people to be able

to experience this in traditional environments, but I think what we're seeing is if you do, that currently is exception to the rule, not the rule.

Agreed. So on LinkedIn, you made a mention about codependency and perfectionism when it comes to asynchronous work styles, which was super intriguing. So tell me more about what you're thinking in that area.

Oh, wow. Gosh, this is so good. Okay, so code I understand codependency in this context as like, let's say like manager or managee, like direct report. Codependency would be like the manager needing the direct report to perform a certain way so that the manager can feel worthy. Like she did a good job.

There's a codependency there where the manager doesn't see the direct report as like her own entity, her own person with her own skills, output or value is completely separate from that of the manager. This is just like a silly example of codependency in the workplace. Right? And then the perfectionism is a relentless unwillingness to make mistakes, to be caught with your pants down, to be caught maybe only getting a base hit when you promised a home run at the first at bat. I think that these two villains are very much obstacles to a calm business because as long as you are operating in a mental state of perfectionism, you'll never pause to look at your values and think like, how can I experience a growth mindset?

Because like a growth mindset and perfectionism are completely at odds with each other. You know, like you can't have one with the other, they're mutually exclusive. So as long as perfectionism is seeping its claws into your mentality and your way of being, I think experiencing calm, it's a far away, far away goal. And then the codependency part, this I also think is a little bit what we've been discussing thus far in this episode is like, people struggle to trust and they think they need to control because they see other people as like a reflection of their goodness. So if you're a manager, you're kind of like, well, how my team performs is a direct reflection of me.

So if I'm a perfectionist, I need to control everything and micromanage because what if somebody finds out that somebody made a mistake, it's going to be on me. I think the healthy, mature, emotionally adept version of this would be like, I'm a manager, this is where I start and I end, this is where the direct reports start and end. We are separate people with separate capabilities, with separate strengths and weaknesses. I'm going to give my team what they need to know, like what's expected of them and then I'm gonna say, go do it and call me when you're done or call me when you get stuck. And then whatever happens has usually very little to do with me, and everything to do with the direct reports.

I did not know this four years ago. I didn't and it sucks to admit this. It's one of those hard lessons that it's embarrassing and it hurts and nobody likes to talk about the times they really messed up, but I really messed this up as a manager and I'm still deconstructing my internalized perfectionism. Where it comes from, why I have it, what triggers it, how I project it onto other people. And those are like the super villains of calm, they really are.

I mean, I don't think it's a reflection on you or any manager, honestly, because so few supervisors get training. Almost no one gets training in how to be a good leader or how to be a good manager. The exception to that is people who have been in the military. So I got a lot of leadership training because I was in ROTC. I literally have a minor in leadership studies because that's translates to is I spent four years learning how to be a leader.

And the military does a really good job of teaching leadership strategy and styles and at all levels of the military and in all branches. Outside of the military, I have never seen an organization do a really good job at training supervisors. They they pick supervisors based on if they're good at doing their work, which is a very different skill set than being a good manager. Being somebody who is really good at enabling other people to do their best work, which is essentially what a good manager should be doing. But the paradigm is not there.

The training is not there. And so I think a lot of people have the same experience you have, which is, man, I really messed that up. But honestly, why would we expect you to know how to do it? It's a skill just like any other. And we all expect that by putting somebody in a leadership position, they'll know how to do it.

But it's actually a skill that you have to learn just like any other.

Yeah. Yeah. But my toxic trait being a recovering perfectionist is that I would expect me to know without training and I would expect me to hit a grand slam on the first at bat. You know, when you have more calm, you can take the time to deconstruct your codependency and your perfectionist patterns. And when you have time to deconstruct those, you can create more calm.

Because now I know what to look for. Now I know where things, where patterns came from, how they come out in work environments and having had that negative experience before. Now I know what I don't want to repeat. But I don't know what formal training people are getting outside of the military. If we're reading books and we're listening to podcasts and that's kind of like the best we can do because there's no amazing global training on how to be a competent leader.

I don't know if people are learning about the emotional side of codependency attachment theory, more of like therapeutic therapy related topics. I don't know if people are relating those to leadership, but that has definitely been a path that I've been down for the past four years. I see those two things as inextricable now.

Yeah, I think in order to be a good leader, a good manager, you have to have unlearned enough and know enough about you and your style and where your strengths are and where your weaknesses are and also be able to see that in your own direct reports. Because if you're gonna develop somebody's skills, you have to be able to clearly see their weaknesses and their strengths and all of those pieces. So I I think there are a lot of good resources out there, but I do think it ends up being mostly left up to the individual. Individual. Or you get, you know, one afternoon of quote unquote supervisor training that is mostly, you know, HR legal training, not leadership training.

I think one of the reasons that so many traditional work environments feel really toxic is because nobody's been taught any other way.

Yeah. And, you know, we do a great job of finding individual solutions to societal problems. You know, that was the straw that broke the camel's back for me as a young middle manager, because you know, being a middle manager is already stressful enough because you have to communicate up and down and sideways and do your own work. Add to the mix that there was no training, very little support. It was a perfect disaster for failure.

Like I said, I'm not proud of it. I wish I could go back and do things differently, but maybe now's my chance. But I think in that post that you referred to, was I kind of relating it back to this call back to the office phenomenon that we're having now where people are like, we now we're gonna go minimum four days back to office. And I'm like, clearly the masses or the people in power who are calling these shots have not taken the time to address their own perfectionism, codependency controlling patterns. I imagine because if it were the case

Or they own corporate real estate.

Probably. Oh, and that's another thing too. It's like, is everybody just trying to justify their rent? Is that what's going on?

That is a huge part of it. I fundamentally believe it's about control and money because that's pretty much what it always comes down to.

Yeah. And it's a shame. It's a shame because there there is a massive opportunity for people to look inward right now. There's a massive opportunity for us to model a new behavior. The times have lent themselves to a structural change.

I perceive so much unwillingness to do things differently, and to keep things the way that they were. And so my default is like, okay, well, I'm just going to do what I can, which sucks because again, it's an individual solution to a very systemic problem. But at the end of the day, I can only control what I can control. That's myself. And not everybody has the luxury.

The takeaway here is that meetings don't equal management. Most of the time they're just proof of control. The Calmer alternative is solving for more autonomy. Clear ownership. Decisions written down where everyone can see them.

Tools that support the work instead of dragging everyone into another room to talk about it. That's really what the management style lever from the calmer framework is all about. Under capitalism, the default is authoritarian, top down, presence driven, and always on. But calmer management shifts towards autonomy, trusting adults to do their own work, and creating systems that make that possible. So here's your tiny action for this week.

Pick one recurring meeting, just one, and ask, does this really need to happen live? If the answer is no, move it to an async update. Post the owner, the outcome, the deadline, and a quick three bullet progress note in your project management tool. And then protect that time. Don't backfill it.

Let the margin stand even if it's uncomfortable at first. Because calm isn't about squeezing more in. It's about keeping the space you create. Until next time, stay calm.